Comments on: China powers up on coal. Yuck http://polizeros.com/2006/12/31/china-powers-up-on-coal-yuck/ Musings on politics: anti-war, global warming, peak oil and otherwise Fri, 05 Dec 2008 04:42:14 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.1 By: Joe Hartley http://polizeros.com/2006/12/31/china-powers-up-on-coal-yuck/#comment-64442 Joe Hartley Tue, 02 Jan 2007 19:31:54 +0000 http://polizeros.com/2006/12/31/china-powers-up-on-coal-yuck/#comment-64442 "Enlightened government" is not something we've seen much under socialist governments. Or, for that matter, Capitalistic ones, outside the post-war western European governments. The real problem is development. Developing countries will trade environmental quality for job every time, regardless of the legal or economic structure. Period. I guess that means that everybody's greedy for more consumer goods, regardless of economic structure or ideology, which doesn't auger well for socialism. An interesting counter-example might be in some of the indigenous populations remaining in the Americas. Specfic areas to examine would be the Yucatán in Mexico and Guatemala (Maya), Ecuador and Perú (largely Quechua) and Bolivia and northwestern Argentina (Aymara), all of which has large numbers of relatively unassimilated indigenous folk. In South America many continue to operate outside the formal economy and have little interest in joining it. (The formal economies of those countries, BTW, are a long way from being what any economist would recognize as capitalistic.) The Maya have a long and sad history of being brutalized by the mestizo and European culture as outsiders. However, they might be valuable models of alternative development, although "development" is also not likely to be a word most would apply to the indiginous life style! “Enlightened government” is not something we’ve seen much under socialist governments. Or, for that matter, Capitalistic ones, outside the post-war western European governments.

The real problem is development. Developing countries will trade environmental quality for job every time, regardless of the legal or economic structure. Period. I guess that means that everybody’s greedy for more consumer goods, regardless of economic structure or ideology, which doesn’t auger well for socialism.

An interesting counter-example might be in some of the indigenous populations remaining in the Americas. Specfic areas to examine would be the Yucatán in Mexico and Guatemala (Maya), Ecuador and Perú (largely Quechua) and Bolivia and northwestern Argentina (Aymara), all of which has large numbers of relatively unassimilated indigenous folk. In South America many continue to operate outside the formal economy and have little interest in joining it. (The formal economies of those countries, BTW, are a long way from being what any economist would recognize as capitalistic.) The Maya have a long and sad history of being brutalized by the mestizo and European culture as outsiders. However, they might be valuable models of alternative development, although “development” is also not likely to be a word most would apply to the indiginous life style!

]]> By: Bob Morris http://polizeros.com/2006/12/31/china-powers-up-on-coal-yuck/#comment-63737 Bob Morris Mon, 01 Jan 2007 03:29:02 +0000 http://polizeros.com/2006/12/31/china-powers-up-on-coal-yuck/#comment-63737 True enough, but under socialism, with an enlightened government, the needed changes would happen faster than in capitalism. True enough, but under socialism, with an enlightened government, the needed changes would happen faster than in capitalism.

]]> By: Joe Hartley http://polizeros.com/2006/12/31/china-powers-up-on-coal-yuck/#comment-63719 Joe Hartley Mon, 01 Jan 2007 02:04:50 +0000 http://polizeros.com/2006/12/31/china-powers-up-on-coal-yuck/#comment-63719 Socialist countries have an even worse tradition of pollution than do capitalist ones. OTOH, ancient Greeece, by the late 5th centure BCE, was already an environmental disaster from too many people putting too much pressure on marginal lands. Jared Diamond's book "Collapse" does not suggest that environmental degredation is anything other than a human problem, not solely a capitalistic one. Socialist countries have an even worse tradition of pollution than do capitalist ones. OTOH, ancient Greeece, by the late 5th centure BCE, was already an environmental disaster from too many people putting too much pressure on marginal lands. Jared Diamond’s book “Collapse” does not suggest that environmental degredation is anything other than a human problem, not solely a capitalistic one.

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